Miniaturizing Interchangeable Lens Cameras

Photography and cinematography

Miniaturizing Interchangeable Lens Cameras

Postby Russell » Sun May 06, 2012 10:02 am

A New Focus for Camera Makers

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When shopping for a higher-end digital camera, photo enthusiasts typically choose between Canon or Nikon.

But a cadre of electronics companies are posing a threat to that dominance by refashioning bulky professional cameras into sleeker, more affordable models.

Camera makers such as Panasonic Corp., Sony Corp. and Olympus Corp. have struggled to eke out profits from the highly competitive point-and-shoot segment, which, because the cameras are relatively easy to manufacture, has low barriers to entry.

To reverse those fortunes, they are waging war in the higher-end market against Nikon Corp. and Canon Inc., which sell about 75% of the world's single-lens-reflex cameras, the model of choice for professional and serious amateur photographers.

The challengers are hoping to gain market share from an emerging type of camera that packs high-end features into a compact design. Like SLRs, these cameras come with large sensors and interchangeable lenses that produce high-quality images. But they don't have the conventional mirror-based viewfinders that reflect the image to the photographer's eye. Instead, the image is digitized, allowing for a more compact body.

These mirrorless models range in price from about $300 to $1,700, compared with digital SLRs that vary from about $500 to several thousand dollars for professional ones, before costly lenses are added.

In an otherwise stagnant camera market hurt by the growing competition from smartphones, the mirrorless models are booming.

Shipments of compact cameras declined last year, but those of the new type nearly doubled from the previous year, with projections of a fivefold increase by 2015, according to market-research firm International Data Corp.

SLRs still are doing well, with shipments forecast to grow 18% this year to 16.76 million units world-wide, according to IDC. But shipments of mirrorless cameras are projected to increase 60% to 6.43 million units. Compact-camera shipments are forecast at 130.69 million units.

The new mirrorless cameras have gained the most traction in Japan, where they accounted for nearly half of all shipments of interchangeable-lens cameras in second half, according to the Camera & Imaging Products Association trade group.

Mirrorless cameras accounted for 16.4% and 18.7% in North America and Europe, respectively.

The product transformation is evident at Pansonic, a 94-year-old electronics maker that entered the digital-camera market in 2001. The Osaka, Japan, company said sales of digital cameras fell 28% from a year earlier in the quarter ended Dec. 31, partly because of sluggish demand for point-and-shoot models. But, within the category, sales of mirrorless cameras rose 67%.

The new cameras especially are a hit among Japanese women. Budding female photo enthusiasts in the country are known as Camera Girls, and manufacturers are targeting them with nontraditional camera colors such as "fiery pink" and "sensual brown." The companies also offer accessories such as camera straps and cases meant to appeal to women.

Image

Panasonic, which introduced the market's first mirrorless compact system camera four years ago, said it took lessons it learned then to the U.S. to sell its Lumix cameras.

Initially the company struggled, because it was targeting "everybody," said Shiro Kitajima, the head of Panasonic's consumer marketing in North America. Panasonic found in market research that women wanted to take better pictures without having to carry a bulky camera.

Panasonic targeted women in print and online advertisements on maternity and beauty sites. It also focused on selling the mirrorless cameras in stores frequented more often by women, rather than the male-dominated battleground of camera or electronics shops.

The strategy was a success. Panasonic said typically about 75% of SLR customers are male, but nearly 70% of the buyers of its mirrorless cameras are female.

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Re: Miniaturizing Interchangeable Lens Cameras

Postby Gaspard de Coligny » Sun May 06, 2012 11:23 am

Budding female photo enthusiasts in the country are known as Camera Girls,


You too can easily become a fucking tool...

Just join our artificially buzzword based bullshit trend of the day...

Don't forget to buy the t-shirt, mug and cap to display your unique personality of random trend brain dead followers...

And also to subscribe to our free newsletter to be the first to know the new trend to follow like a good lemming as well as the availability of our self cleaning suicide booth the allow the planet to get rid of the waste of oxygen you are...

(this message also apply to haz been fashion victims like rekishi ko and mori ko)
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Re: Miniaturizing Interchangeable Lens Cameras

Postby Russell » Sun May 06, 2012 12:23 pm

Gaspard de Coligny wrote:
Budding female photo enthusiasts in the country are known as Camera Girls,


You too can easily become a fucking tool...

Just join our artificially buzzword based bullshit trend of the day...

Don't forget to buy the t-shirt, mug and cap to display your unique personality of random trend brain dead followers...

And also to subscribe to our free newsletter to be the first to know the new trend to follow like a good lemming as well as the availability of our self cleaning suicide booth the allow the planet to get rid of the waste of oxygen you are...

(this message also apply to haz been fashion victims like rekishi ko and mori ko)

I would not exactly call this "the trend of the day", but rather a long-term trend towards smaller cameras with high image quality. Since Japanese companies are at the forefront of this development (the first one was Olympus, soon joined by Panasonic), I thought it worthwhile to start a thread on it.
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Re: Miniaturizing Interchangeable Lens Cameras

Postby Gaspard de Coligny » Sun May 06, 2012 12:41 pm

The study of history is not exactly a trend of the day either... Just the concept of rekichi ko that is over the top bullcrap...

The camera girl trend is as full of shit as the rest. People take pictures... yes they do... the way they are trying to conceptualize it by "naming it" and making it fashionnable statement / trend is corporate-marketting-vapid capitalist dystopian crap that start to be more vomit inducing than ever...

These camera seems a good way to make people realise that DSLR is an hybrid lowtech/hightech bondoogle that might have outlived its purpose...

Trying it to push their sales by making it artificially popular among brain dead spunkdumpsters... creating a "card carrying" matching group is a discutable strategery...
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Re: Miniaturizing Interchangeable Lens Cameras

Postby chokonen888 » Mon May 07, 2012 6:16 pm

As to the mirrorless cameras, they're just higher end point and shoots. They make sense when they're the size/price of a point and shoot but after a certain size/price, most rational people would just buy an SLR....oh wait, they made them pink and market them to women? Genious :roll:

Gaspard de Coligny wrote:
Budding female photo enthusiasts in the country are known as Camera Girls,
Just join our artificially buzzword based bullshit trend of the day...


Bwahahahahhahaha

I was thinking the same thing as soon as I read "The new cameras especially are a hit among Japanese women. Budding female photo enthusiasts in the country are known as Camera Girls, and manufacturers are targeting them with nontraditional camera colors such as "fiery pink" and "sensual brown."

Known as Camera Girls....Camera Girls....oh, you mean like the mountain girls, drift girls, sports girls, etc etc etc etc [insert verb/noun here] girls?

What kind of fake, "creative," buzzword will they come up with next?
Lemurs (lē′·mər) are a clade of strepsirrhine primates endemic to the island of Japan. They are named after the lemures (ghosts or spirits) of Roman mythology due to the ghostly vocalizations, reflective eyes, and the nocturnal habits of some species.
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Re: Miniaturizing Interchangeable Lens Cameras

Postby cellis » Mon May 07, 2012 6:21 pm

chokonen888 wrote:As to the mirrorless cameras, they're just higher end point and shoots. They make sense when they're the size/price of a point and shoot but after a certain size/price, most rational people would just buy an SLR....

They are actually more like low-end SLRs from a design standpoint from what I understand. I really want one personally because of the size, an SLR is too big to take with me hiking and such.
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Re: Miniaturizing Interchangeable Lens Cameras

Postby Hammer » Mon May 07, 2012 6:33 pm

chokonen888 wrote:As to the mirrorless cameras, they're just higher end point and shoots. They make sense when they're the size/price of a point and shoot but after a certain size/price, most rational people would just buy an SLR....

Not quite. Especially when they use full-frame or nearly full-frame sensors. Most of 'em can even use Leica M-mount lenses. Mirrorless cameras are becoming more and more capable of delivering the same quality as high-end SLRs, without the mirror, which means they can be smaller, quieter, and suffer from less mechanical vibration. I mentioned Leica lenses, that being the "bling" extreme, but the major manufacturers are beginning to turn out some amazingly good lenses for these cameras too.

These things are not to be sniffed at (unless, that is, you're comparing them to the new Nikon D800 (36.3 megapixels, full frame, and full HD 1080p video to boot). Woo-har!
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Re: Miniaturizing Interchangeable Lens Cameras

Postby chokonen888 » Mon May 07, 2012 6:40 pm

Hammer wrote:they can be smaller, quieter, and suffer from less mechanical vibration


:? What are you using yours for Hammer? Hmmmm


Yeah, they can be made to deliver SLR quality shots but at that price point, you're better off with an SLR. For now anyways.
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Re: Miniaturizing Interchangeable Lens Cameras

Postby Hammer » Mon May 07, 2012 7:25 pm

chokonen888 wrote:
Hammer wrote:they can be smaller, quieter, and suffer from less mechanical vibration


:? What are you using yours for Hammer? Hmmmm


Yeah, they can be made to deliver SLR quality shots but at that price point, you're better off with an SLR. For now anyways.

Perennial gutter mind! Unfortunately they don't quite vibrate enough to be useful for anything more than taking blurry photographs.

I tell ya though ... my current "serious" cameras are a pair of Nikon D700s with a fleet of F2.8 zooms that go from 14mm to 200mm that feel like they'd sink the goddamn Queen Mary after you've been carrying them around for a bit. If I can can get comparable quality (and control, we mustn't forget control) with a mirrorless system, it probably won't be too long before I jump ship. And I'm not the only one. In a studio, fine. On the road, smaller and lighter is always better, assuming equivalent IQ. I think you'll be seeing a huge shift in the camera marketplace over the next year or two.

Can't stop drooling over that D800 though, which is a very bad sign.

Very bad ... must hide wallet and credit card from self ... baaaad self ...

EDIT: D800 discussion split to "Nikon D800" thread.
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Re: Miniaturizing Interchangeable Lens Cameras

Postby Gaspard de Coligny » Mon May 07, 2012 9:48 pm

Guys, wasn't the mirror on the SLR only needed for the viewfinder ?

When the viewfinder hole is replaced with a digital screen the whole, mirror-clap-mechanical-bondoogle become useless ... no ??

Therefore the only difference between pro cam and pont and shoot become the changeabul lenses...
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Re: Miniaturizing Interchangeable Lens Cameras

Postby Hammer » Mon May 07, 2012 9:53 pm

Gaspard de Coligny wrote:Guys, wasn't the mirror on the SLR only needed for the viewfinder ?

When the viewfinder hole is replaced with a digital screen the whole, mirror-clap-mechanical-bondoogle become useless ... no ??

Therefore the only difference between pro cam and pont and shoot become the changeabul lenses...

Yes, yes, and yes.

That's the whole idea.

The only real remaining difference is the fact that you can fit more "fall under the fingers" controls on a larger DSLR body, which does help in some situations. And some people just like a bigger, heavier camera. I used to be one of them ... but that was before image stabilization ... and old age ...
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Re: Miniaturizing Interchangeable Lens Cameras

Postby Russell » Mon May 07, 2012 11:29 pm

The difference with Point & Shoot cameras is the larger sensors in mirrorless interchangeable lens cameras (except for the Pentax Q, which has a smaller sensor than the better Point & Shoots).

Larger sensor means larger pixel sizes on the sensor, allowing more light-catching capability, which tends to result in lower image noise levels.

Compared to DSLRs, mirrorless cameras tend to be slower focusing, because they use contrast-detection for focusing, rather than the phase-detection of DSLRs. This is especially noticeable in the earlier models. Recent models of mirrorless cameras, however, are very fast, and they focus even more precise than DSLRs. However, they still loose out to DSLRs for applications when fast-moving targets need to be shot.

The following model lines are available:

Sony Nex: sensor size 67% of Full-Frame, very small to small cameras, medium size lenses, only few lenses available, excellent image quality. Few cameras available. Current top model: Nex 7

Samsung Nx: sensor size 67% of Full-Frame, small cameras, medium size lenses, few lenses available, good to excellent image quality (not available in Japan)

Pentax K1: sensor size 67% of Full-Frame, medium size camera, big lenses, many lenses available (because compatible with their DSLRs), excellent image quality. Only one camera available.

Micro Four Thirds (Olympus & Panasonic, compatible to each other): sensor size 50% of Full Frame, very small to small cameras, small lenses, many lenses available, good to excellent image quality (depending on model). Many cameras available. Current top models: Olympus OMD E-M5 (see first pic in my OP) and Panasonic GH2 (soon to be replaced by GH3).

Nikon 1: sensor size 37% of Full Frame, very small to small cameras, small lenses, only few lenses available, good image quality. Only two cameras available. High-speed image capture possible. Has both contrast-detection and phase-detection focusing, but somehow tends to be slow in low light.

Pentax Q: sensor size 18% of Full Frame, extremely small cameras, extremely small lenses, only few lenses available, mediocre image quality (like Point & Shoot). Only one camera available.

Canon: not yet announced, but rumored to have sensor size 50% of Full Frame.

As an aside, most DSLRs have sensor sizes of 67% of Full Frame, and have similar image quality to the mirrorless cameras with approximately same sensor sizes. As Hammer pointed out, Full Frame is top image quality, but then you are talking professional equipment with professional prices.
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Re: Miniaturizing Interchangeable Lens Cameras

Postby GargoyleTS » Tue May 08, 2012 12:03 am

In an otherwise stagnant camera market hurt by the growing competition from smartphones, the mirrorless models are booming.


Smartphone cameras....*spit*

Useful for things like: pics at the scene of the accident. pics of your funny toe fungus for a buddy to check out. pics of bascially anything you don't really want to keep.

Flat depth of field (if you're lucky), usually incorrect settings used for the lighting conditions (since the controls are all software), slow "shutter" speeds causing blurring if you so much as think about letting your heart beat when you take your pictures. So much more wrong with them, not even gonna talk about the horrible "flash" they are coming with now...but omg teh megapicksils! It has teh 8 megapicksels must have om nom nom!!!!

I hate the damned things, even on top end phones. They are still as useless as point and shoots from the 70's....less so if you include the flash issues.

But on the actual topic. I LIKE my viewfinder. Its handy for a lot including composing the image. No distractions to the eye when you are looking through it, all you see is what the camera sees. So you have to pay attention. Even with them I see so many of my (supposed) family members at gatherings holding the camera out at arms length (they are all old and have failing eyesight) to see the little screen and get everyone into the picture. I tell them to use the viewfinder, then they won't have to squint or have their arms get tired of Maudine and Bubbajoe are both having more fun talking than scooching in like they've been told. They don't listen and get crappy pics while I snag nice ones and let mom email them around.

This will only exasperate that sort of thing. "Oh Gargy, I have this really nice Panasonic Blah Blah and bought these lenses off Ebay for it but still get horrible pictures. What CAMERA do you recommend I get to replace it all?"

These guys need to put an insert in with the rules for composition and basics of lighting and then have the camera FORCE the user to go through a tutorial that actually grades them and makes them do it over and over until they appear to understand them. This way I can charge relatives for doing the tutorial for them >.>
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Re: Miniaturizing Interchangeable Lens Cameras

Postby Russell » Tue May 08, 2012 7:51 am

:o Ouch, I forgot this mirrorless:

Fuji X Pro 1: sensor size 67% of Full Frame, small camera, small lenses, only few lenses available, outstanding image quality (one notch above excellent), only one camera available, focusing somewhat slow.

And then there are of course the Leicas, most of which have always been mirrorless. I will not list those, since they are a class on their own with outstanding image quality, but somewhat slow focusing. And they are extremely expensive.

The above Fuji has been mentioned as being on par with Leica in image quality, but against a lower price (which is still high compared to other mirrorless brands).
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Re: Miniaturizing Interchangeable Lens Cameras

Postby Hammer » Tue May 08, 2012 7:59 am

Russell wrote::o Ouch, I forgot this mirrorless:

Fuji X Pro 1: sensor size 67% of Full Frame, small camera, small lenses, only few lenses available, outstanding image quality (one notch above excellent), only one camera available, focusing somewhat slow.

And then there are of course the Leicas, most of which have always been mirrorless. I will not list those, since they are a class on their own with outstanding image quality, but somewhat slow focusing. And they are extremely expensive.

The above Fuji has been mentioned as being on par with Leica in image quality, but against a lower price (which is still high compared to other mirrorless brands).

A photo freak buddy of mine recently acquired the Fuji X Pro 1 and I have seen some of the results first hand.
The image quality really is outstanding. A well-appointed system wouldn't be cheap, but it wouldn't be super expensive either. Very, very nice.

You also need to check out the Sony NEX-7.
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Re: Miniaturizing Interchangeable Lens Cameras

Postby chokonen888 » Tue May 08, 2012 12:42 pm

Gaspard de Coligny wrote:Guys, wasn't the mirror on the SLR only needed for the viewfinder ?

When the viewfinder hole is replaced with a digital screen the whole, mirror-clap-mechanical-bondoogle become useless ... no ??

Therefore the only difference between pro cam and pont and shoot become the changeabul lenses...


I have a Sony α55 right now and it uses a digital viewfinder but still has some sort of "SLT" fixed mirror. So yeah, a "hybrid" in that sense. The display also swivels out and makes for great ninja shots ;)

Image

Don't get me wrong, I agree with hammer that mirrorless cameras are where things are heading but when you factory price/performance into the mix, were aren't there just yet.
Lemurs (lē′·mər) are a clade of strepsirrhine primates endemic to the island of Japan. They are named after the lemures (ghosts or spirits) of Roman mythology due to the ghostly vocalizations, reflective eyes, and the nocturnal habits of some species.
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Re: Miniaturizing Interchangeable Lens Cameras

Postby Gaspard de Coligny » Tue May 08, 2012 2:04 pm

Funny, my canon have exactly the same button layout on the right of the backscreen... it's a real sony or some badge engineering ?
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Re: Miniaturizing Interchangeable Lens Cameras

Postby chokonen888 » Tue May 08, 2012 2:44 pm

Gaspard de Coligny wrote:Funny, my canon have exactly the same button layout on the right of the backscreen... it's a real sony or some badge engineering ?


Who knows...but all my lenses are Sony so... :oops:
Lemurs (lē′·mər) are a clade of strepsirrhine primates endemic to the island of Japan. They are named after the lemures (ghosts or spirits) of Roman mythology due to the ghostly vocalizations, reflective eyes, and the nocturnal habits of some species.
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Re: Miniaturizing Interchangeable Lens Cameras

Postby Russell » Tue May 08, 2012 10:48 pm

chokonen888 wrote:
Gaspard de Coligny wrote:Funny, my canon have exactly the same button layout on the right of the backscreen... it's a real sony or some badge engineering ?


Who knows...but all my lenses are Sony so... :oops:

Sony bought Minolta / Konica, so presumably they design their own cameras and lenses.
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Re: Miniaturizing Interchangeable Lens Cameras

Postby Hugh Jørgen » Tue May 08, 2012 11:50 pm

Back when I did a lot of microscopy, Zeiss was the scheiß. How are they in the photog biz?
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